DanZ ([info]fclbrokle) wrote,
@ 2009-05-21 13:59:00
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Credit Cards for Young People
The recent congressional legislation on credit cards (expected to be signed by President Obama, including a totally unrelated measure to allow concealed handguns in national parks) limits advertising that credit card companies can do towards young people. It would require, for anyone under 21, either a parent cosigner or demonstration of independent income; it would ban credit cards for anyone under the age of 18.

The intent is obvious: don't get young people hooked on credit; let them wait to start using cards until they're more responsible. I wonder, however, if the true result will be inexperienced credit card users who do damage to their long-term financial prospects when they have the resources (and credit lines) to do so. I first got a checking account when I was 12 and a credit card when I was 16. I learned a lot from my experiences then. I did bounce a few checks, and quickly learned how much trouble it gets you in (and how much money it costs), such that I now keep a carefully balanced checkbook. I had the chance to accidentally miss a few payments when my spending (and thus the interest charged) was not too high, learning the consequences, how to deal with it, and how to avoid it happening again.

I claim that credit cards can be a valuable learning tool for young people; now they'll have to first get cards while they're also dealing with numerous other transitions and stresses in their life. It may also adversely affect those who are not financially savvy, causing greater harm to those who grew up in families without credit cards or other common financial tools.

Although I understand the need to police credit card debt, I think this bill is a mistake, one that will result in less informed consumers. Would we not be better off by requiring credit card companies to give very low limits to young cardholders, and requiring them to deliver educational materials to them?



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[info]ukelele
2009-05-21 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Or, you know, parental consent. I get restricting access for people who may be young and stupid. I don't get the government restricting it when the parents are cool with not restricting it.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-21 08:14 pm UTC (link)
Hrm... I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing!

Currently, the law allows those under 18 to get credit cards with parent co-signers; that will no longer be the case after this law. (So on that, I suppose you agree.)

The law also makes parental consent (or an independent income) necessary for those between 18 and 21, which also aligns with your views (which is why I'm not sure where you stand). I mostly object to restricting credit cards for those in the 18-21 range because I think that constantly pushing up the age where children reach "adulthood" is a mistake that encourages less developed and mature adults.

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[info]lokiect
2009-05-21 09:23 pm UTC (link)
augh, I've been not paying attention to the world much lately. I'm never happy seeing stuff about restricting young adults. And exactly how much of our grand financial crisis has to do with kids being irresponsible before they're 21? If it's predator credit cards to college students who don't know better, isn't restricting the students kind of the wrong side of the issue?

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 05:34 am UTC (link)
I think the theory is that it was caused by folks who once were 21.

Anyway, yeah.

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[info]cesium12
2009-05-22 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Well, is it better that they're no longer 21? If so, why not let people reach that maturity more quickly? If not, it makes no difference anyway.

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[info]dzm
2009-05-21 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I've been vaguely paying attention to this bill, with some amount of dismay. Certainly in the current world new credit cards are very easy to get, and at least one person I know has pretty successfully played the game of rolling balances over to new cards with friendly promotional rates for a bit. It seems like it's pretty widely known that interest rates on credit cards are bad-to-terrible, you never ever want to miss a payment, and if you're in a position of being able to pay off 100% of your balance you're far better doing so. So where is the need for Congress to regulate that, if individuals are putting themselves in a position where they know their credit cards can screw them, the credit cards must not?

I also think banning people under 18 from having credit cards is a mistake. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it if a parent or legal guardian is willing to co-sign for it (the same way my parents were co-signers on my checking account and my student loans). And "get a credit card early and use it responsibly" is one of the classic ways of bootstrapping your credit record so that you can eventually buy a house. Why forbid that?

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-21 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Agreed mostly, although the truth is that there are a lot of people who don't have basic knowledge of credit cards. I suspect that a lot don't realize how bad credit card rates are or just don't have a lot of the basic knowledge that we take for granted. When you're asking people who have little experience with financial instruments to evaluate the benefits of paying off an electric bill vs. paying a credit card bill, it becomes non-trivial. Also, terms and consequences are confusing and lots of people misunderstand them.

But yeah, I basically agreed. I think a law that advocated clearer disclosure and better education would've been a lot better.

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[info]easwaran
2009-05-21 09:48 pm UTC (link)
In Washington DC I noticed some nice ads on the metro featuring a quiz like, "If you need $100 which of the following costs the least? A) Bouncing a check, B) not paying your credit card bill, C) getting a payday loan, D) (I don't really remember what all four options were", and then at the bottom it said what the average costs would be for all of these options. It looked like useful economic information for the people who need it most.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 05:34 am UTC (link)
Ah, nice!

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I have no point, I'm just saying....
[info]gnibbles
2009-05-21 07:58 pm UTC (link)
I've been too something* to let either bounced checks or missed payments happen to me. Even if I'd had a credit card since the age of 16, I still wouldn't know what to do if either occurred.

My parents** went from "You're a kid, you don't need banking-related skills or knowledge" to "You're an adult, now go get a bank account, credit card, and start being adult-like" in something like 3 months. It was singularly unhelpful.

The bill probably just reinforces that point of view. I dunno. It's like the drinking laws.

* something like a combination of wary and responsible, more on the side of paranoia than any real responsibility

** and by parents I mean my dad. My mom stayed mum about the whole thing.

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Re: I have no point, I'm just saying....
[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-21 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Yup, I think we totally agree here. Of course, no law can protect against parents, but they can be encouraging.

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[info]schnerf
2009-05-21 07:58 pm UTC (link)
We all want new credit card holders to be exactly as responsible as new drinkers on their 21st birthdays, right?

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-21 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Oh gosh... don't even say that...

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[info]polynomial
2009-05-21 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Regarding setting lower limits: People like med, business, or engineering students may need higher limits on credit cards for times between (reasonable-rate) loans. I certainly will appreciate a higher limit for when I'm trying to buy a nice suit for a job interview, or to cover moving expenses.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 05:36 am UTC (link)
Sure, but that suit isn't going to cost you thousands of dollars; you don't need a crazy-good credit card for that. And it's a far sight better than disallowing credit cards altogether.

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[info]hahafaha
2009-05-21 09:23 pm UTC (link)
So, a very interesting argument I have heard about drinking ages being lowered is this: many people will have had several years (maybe, like, 5) worth of driving experience by the time they are 21. However, those few who have never had any drinking experience and who decide to try it at 21 will not have the sufficient understanding of the effects. They will drink a pint, not notice any immediate effects, decide that it's safe to drive home, and 30 minutes later get into a car accident.

In a way, this is similar. Sure, we don't want people drinking because it's bad for them, but mostly, it's bad for other people. If there's one thing that the economic crisis has shown, it is that people spending money that they don't have (and have no plausible chance at ever getting) is supremely bad for other people, and that the market doesn't do a good enough job of internalizing that cost to society.

But there's the other similarity to the drinking age, and that is that people will have had experience with something else before they are 21, and that is spending money. And the thing is, spending cash is very different than using a credit card. Cash is tangible. You can't bounce cash. You can't go above a limit. You have it or you don't, and when you don't, you only cause problems for yourself, not others. So the result is that if you don't allow credit cards before 18, then people who have had many years worth of spending experience will suddenly assume that it's the exact same thing, and go crazy.

As far as requiring a parent to cosign before 21, I agree with something you mentioned above that pushing the legal definition of "full adult" higher is a bad idea.

So, I guess, in summary, I agree :-)

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[info]cesium12
2009-05-21 11:25 pm UTC (link)
I suspect this is a symptom of a societal perceptions. Driving is widely regarded as not inherently harmful, and parents want their kids to drive safely, etc., so there's a gradual course of instruction over a few years to get young drivers accustomed. But no one wants to be seen encouraging underage drinking, which is why you get people being really excited for their birthday so they can drink, without knowing the effects, and then hurt themselves and others.

Giving young people control of money is at risk of being seen in the same category as giving them control of alcohol. If anything, that would be more dangerous.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 05:39 am UTC (link)
There's a group of college presidents arguing for lowering the drinking age. It's called The Amethyst Initiative, and, to be honest, I see their points---as someone who doesn't drink at all.

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[info]meep
2009-05-22 12:10 pm UTC (link)
Way back in the day before they decided to federalize the drinking age in the U.S., some states had graduated laws, where you could drink weak beer from age 18 - 21 (or something), and then could buy the hard stuff thereafter.

I would be cool with limiting the under 18 crowd to Bud Lite, for example. You can still get drunk on that stuff, but to get to that point (for those of Irish extraction at any rate) you're going to be rushing to the toilet a lot. Some people get drunk much easier, of course.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's sensible.

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[info]easwaran
2009-05-21 09:52 pm UTC (link)
It sounded like the other parts of the bill were fairly good, requiring credit card companies to be much more transparent and less punitive in terms of changing rates on people and charging hidden fees. I've never really known what rate any of my cards charges, and only very rarely notice fees for things like using foreign currency, or "finance charges", whatever those are. I suspect that many people that are in much worse financial situations are at least as ignorant as I am about those sorts of things, so it's good to make them more transparent, even if it drives up costs slightly for people that are better credit risks.

However, I think you're right that it's better to allow young people to have credit cards, but perhaps with lower limits and the like, so that they can learn how they work in a lower-risk environment. Although again, I don't know how much lower-risk the home environment is than the adult environment, for children growing up in low-income families.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 05:51 am UTC (link)
It's a tricky thing. The problem is that, for unsecured debt, you need to charge a pretty high interest rate for it to be reasonable. I agree that greater transparency is good and I don't mind my interest rate going up to compensate for the fact that this is unsecured debt. However, the law also mandates, for example, that if a customer is delinquent with a payment you're not allowed to raise their interest rates for a period greater than six months. That denies the credit card companies the ability to account for the customer's full risk profile, meaning that everyone gets higher rates because this person's rate must be lowered back down. Basically, it's like asking an insurance company to set a life insurance rate but only allowing them to account for illnesses in the past year, and nothing that might have come up before then.

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[info]oxeador
2009-05-22 03:37 pm UTC (link)
This is somewhat unrelated, and I am going to sound elitist, but I do not understand why people need to "learn" the consequences of not handling credit properly enough. Isn't it evident? I submit that anybody who does not understand this is suffering from innumeracy. I mean, the rules are clear. Well, there are hidden charges and all that, but you know you are going to have to pay a large fee plus a large interest if you do not make your payment in full every month. It is obvious that buying something that you cannot pay in full at the end of month is a bad idea, unless you really do not have a choice (for instance, a medical expense, rather than something you can get by without).

Also, I do not understand the need for credit cards to begin with.

In Spain credit cards were extremely rare until a couple of years ago (and still are pretty rare). Instead, we all have only debit cards, which work exactly the same, except that at the end of the month the full balance is automatically deducted from your bank account. I have never actually needed a credit card, in the US sense. I got my first one when I moved to Berkeley at the age of 25 (together with my first checking account -- we do not use checks in Spain, either) because that was the only thing I could get in the US. I can say that 1) I had no troubles knowing instantly how to handle my new credit abilities (and never missing a full payment), I still do not see the actual need for a credit, rather than a debit card.

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[info]cesium12
2009-05-22 04:29 pm UTC (link)
People don't always act in accordance with rational decisions from objective knowledge.

The point of a credit card is that you can spend more money than you have now, and pay it off later. Consumers are happy because this lets them not worry quite so often about how much cash they have on hand, and the companies are happy because they can extort large interest payments out of people.

You can certainly still get a debit card (and use it) in the US. But it's not as flexible as a credit card (including in emergency situations as you note). People like instant gratification - buy now, pay later. In fact, most consumer-end economic innovations (at least in the recent past) have been to this end. It's a known psychological fact, too, that costs in the future often weigh far less people's minds than benefits in the present -- so the voice of reason tends to get drowned out.

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[info]oxeador
2009-05-25 02:55 pm UTC (link)
I do no think it is so much instant gratification -- by now, pay later -- as "buy now, even if you do not have the ability to pay now, and neither will you later".

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-22 06:47 pm UTC (link)
The biggest flaw in your argument is that it *is* innumeracy, and lots of people suffer from that. Innumeracy is a much harder problem to fix, but you can "learn" negative effects of credit cards from personal experience or from watching it happen to others, without understanding the underlying mathematics.

Here is one example of a case where I would want to use a credit card. I own a business and I get a large order, payable on delivery. I need to buy the raw materials to fulfill this order. I use a credit card, acknowledging that I will pay a large interest rate, but also that I will make greater profit than I pay in interest. The same can happen on a personal level: as [info]polynomial pointed out, buying a suit for a job interview; buying a car or gas to continue to get to a job; buying food for my children until I can get a job while I'm unemployed.

I can imagine other (less responsible) uses as well. The Superbowl is coming up and I'm just short enough money to buy a big-screen TV; I buy the TV so I can enjoy the Superbowl with friends now, and then pay it off later.

Quite frankly, you are much more mathematically capable than most people. Even if not, you've had steady employment with a predictable (and low) income. Others may try to spread their dollars further.

Anyway, I basically agree that credit cards are somewhat broken, but I also think that it's possible for people to learn to use them responsibly and the law could help that process.

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[info]oxeador
2009-05-25 03:04 pm UTC (link)
Ok, yes, the problem is innumeracy, and innumeracy is rampant.

I have to point out that at least some of your examples are flawed. For instance, I think you should never use a credit card to buy food for your children until you can get a job while you are unemployed. Presumably, you have zero saving and not a job, when you need the credit card to avoid starvation. If you put in on a credit card, chances are next month you will still have no money for food, plus you will have a growing debt that you are unable to pay. You are better off, instead, asking friends or relatives for help, or asking a charity or food bank for help (those exist in the US, too, don't they?)

Also, which credit card company gives a credit card to a person who does not have enough money for food?

The only case where I can see using a credit card and not paying the balance in full at the end of the month as a wise choice, is when you do not have enough money now, but you have good reason to believe you will have plenty in one or a few months. And even then, unless this happens to you on a regular basis (in which case you should reconsider your finances), I still think you are better off exploring alternatives. I would be happy to lend $200 to any friend who needs them for a good reason on a one occasion (particularly if it is to feed their children), and so would you, and probably almost any person I know.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-26 02:23 am UTC (link)
Food: Well, yes, you're better off if you have friends or family that can help you, or if charities and food banks have enough to help out. But there are other issues at play here as well; someone who has become unemployed will often feel that it is beneath their dignity to ask for help. (This is also how someone who doesn't have enough money for food gets a card: either they exaggerated their income earlier, or they became unemployed.)

I have direct personal experience with credit card abuse. It's not logical, but I've seen it happen. It comes from an unwillingness to lower your standard of living (or accept a lower standard of living) and the situation where you just keep charging a little bit more each month, as if it doesn't matter, not making a serious dent on your credit limit. The person I knew ended up declaring bankruptcy (with my help), but now the same trends are starting to reassert themselves. It's not logical. It's not even innumeracy --- there's a conscious realization that it is not to one's benefit financially, but there's also this sense that the consequences of not having enough now are too severe. It defies logic, and they know it, but they do it anyway. In this case, it's just how their minds work.

(Incidentally, I do have one more example of a reasonable time to use your credit card: to pay for private school tuition for your children.)

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[info]oxeador
2009-05-25 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Even if not, you've had steady employment with a predictable (and low) income. Others may try to spread their dollars further.

Hm... I do not know what you mean exactly by this, but I think that, before going to Berkeley at the age of 25, this was not true. While I was growing up (and up until that age), my parents never had any kind of savings and lived in a (controlled-rent, and ridiculously low rent) rented apartment. While we always had enough to eat, I grew up without video games, or computers (until I won one at a physics Olympiad), or the gadgets that all my school peers had, and our vacations consisted of camping within a few hours of home or visiting my grandparents in their little village one hour from home (after my dad could afford a second-hand car -- I think I was 6 or so). I started private tutoring at the age of 14 (which is older than the age my mom started working full-time), and covered all my school-related expenses from it (including books and tuition). My mother delayed fixing her teeth (one of the few things not covered by Spanish health care) until I had saved enough by private-tutoring because we could not pay for it. I am not trying to tell you that I was poor (but most certainly I was not medium class), but that those people who spread their dollars further do not get credit cards. If somebody had given us a credit card, it would more likely have hurt us, than helped us.

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[info]viritrilbia
2009-05-22 10:20 pm UTC (link)
One real advantage of a credit card over a debit card is that (in the US, at least) it is notably easier to get a fraudulent credit card charge canceled (partly since you haven't actually paid the money yet) than it is to get a fraudulent debit card change refunded. At least, so I've heard; neither one has ever happened to me.

I've also been told that having a credit card which you pay off promptly every month is a good way to build up a credit rating. Which of course may be useful when you eventually want to take out a "real" loan, such as to buy a car or a house.

I think the real problem is probably a cultural one: not only are people innumerate, they are not good at delaying gratification, i.e. waiting to have something until they can afford it. Which is something that Congress has, at best, limited ability to influence.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-23 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Ah, good point; those are both benefits to credit cards.

Yeah, delayed gratification... not so much. :)

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[info]oxeador
2009-05-25 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I've also been told that having a credit card which you pay off promptly every month is a good way to build up a credit rating. Which of course may be useful when you eventually want to take out a "real" loan, such as to buy a car or a house.

And that is the only reason why I have credit cards. In America, in order to get a car loan, or a mortgage, or sometimes even renting an apartment, they do a credit check; the stupid thing is that being a happy adult who has never had a credit card because they never needed a loan is a bad thing. Apparently having had loans that you struggled to pay is better. It does not make sense to me.

Also

...they are not good at delaying gratification, i.e. waiting to have something until they can afford it.

Yes, yes, yes. I would add "or not buying it at all if they cannot afford it". But, of course, the message we hear is that we have to make an effort and buy anyway, even if we cannot afford it, to help the economy. Ridiculous.

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[info]viritrilbia
2009-05-26 01:24 am UTC (link)
I won't say it makes complete sense to me either, but keep in mind that what they need to know is the probability that you will keep up your payments and pay off the loan. They are not in the business of rewarding good financial sense; they are in the business of not losing money. Having had a loan that you struggled, and succeeded, to pay off is evidence that you are the sort of person who will struggle and succeed at paying off a loan, rather than fall behind in your payments or declare bankruptcy even when you are deeply in the hole. And of course, having failed to make payments on a loan or declared bankruptcy is a big red flag. But I can imagine that having never needed a loan, while it provides some evidence of good financial sense, doesn't necessarily say as much about how you will behave when you do have a big loan that you've never had to deal with before. If I were in the business of making loans, I would pay attention to statistical analyses of what the good predictors are of who will pay off their loans, and it's quite possible that having had a credit card that you pay off promptly is, in fact, a good predictor. Of course, it's also possible that it isn't and the system is broken, but that's not a priori obvious to me.

But, of course, the message we hear is that we have to make an effort and buy anyway, even if we cannot afford it, to help the economy. Ridiculous.

Yeah, maybe if our elected officials would set a good example, ordinary people would learn to show a little fiscal restraint. But who am I kidding?

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-26 02:28 am UTC (link)
The idea of buying stuff you can't afford to help the economy is long-term bad but short-term good. It's short-term good because it does, in fact, help employment. It's long-term bad because it prevents an alignment of producers and service-providers to the goods that we really need. So, for example, it was reasonable after 9/11 (the economy was artificially slowed); it would be unreasonable now, when we need a realignment.

I'm intrigued by your comment about elected officials, because if you're referring to the deficit, there are perfectly good reasons for running one. Not all the time, but using the money for (as an example) capital investment can pay off substantially for both the economy and the government. Similarly now, when it can, if spent well, get the economy restarted producing the goods and services that we need.

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[info]viritrilbia
2009-05-26 02:49 am UTC (link)
Your two paragraphs sound contradictory to me. First you say that buying stuff you can't afford would be bad for the economy now because we need a realignment. Then you say that the government buying stuff it can't afford will help get the economy restarted. Am I missing something?

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-05-26 04:26 pm UTC (link)
If people in general buy "extra" stuff, they'll be spending it on luxury goods and will artificially pump up the demand for, say, big-screen TVs. Then a whole lot of people will be employed building big-screen TVs, factories will be built supplying parts for big-screen TVs, etc. (Or, in this economy, those factories will fail to close to match actual demand.) As a result, the economy can't align itself to sustainable production of what consumers need.

In contrast, the government can do lots of useful things with its money. They can make investments that make things more liquid (offering small-business loans) so that companies can more quickly align to match market forces, thus making the period of realignment shorter. They can invest in infrastructure that the economy needs (roads, bridges, etc.) that will serve dual purposes of enabling the economy to be more successful when it picks up and employing people at reasonable levels such that their consumption is that of an average consumer and will motivate the right demand. They can make far-sighted capital investments (e.g. wind farms, in expectation of falling oil demand) that, among other things, help to relieve the trade deficit.

In fact, government is probably the best example of an organization that can, I think, have it in its interest to never be out of debt. If they're running over-budget periodically and spending in ways that boost long-term growth, they'll recap their loan costs and much more from the increased tax base.

That doesn't justify perpetual deficits or irresponsible spending; but yes, the government buying stuff it can't afford can help get the economy restarted.

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[info]viritrilbia
2009-05-28 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Well, you have more confidence than I do in the government's likelihood of doing useful things vis-a-vis people's likelihood of doing useful things. After all, government is made up of people, or at least of politicians, and politicians have historically displayed a predilection for the political equivalent of big-screen TVs. See for instance this article. And I'm inherently skeptical that the government can make better investments than private investors (unless the government is simultaneously distorting the signals sent by the market to private investors).

However, that said, we probably don't really disagree in substance. I don't dispute that there is value in government investment, and even in occasional deficit spending, just as there are times when it makes sense for individuals to borrow money. My comment about elected officials was intended to be more about the government perpetually running a deficit by spending lots of money that it doesn't have on unnecessary, counterproductive, and/or ill-designed programs.

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[info]yashabk
2009-06-23 03:30 pm UTC (link)
I got a fradulent debit charge refunded without much trouble. I think all I had to do was fill out a form and attach a police report, and maybe get something notarized. Granted, the amount was under $100, so it was probably in the bank's interest to give me the money and not give me much trouble about it.

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