DanZ ([info]fclbrokle) wrote,
@ 2009-02-12 21:38:00
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Seeking Coteachers for an Awesome Astrophysics Class
I'm currently in the planning stages for a fantastic HSSP class on astronomy and astrophysics. (HSSP is an eight-week version of Splash, where students can take courses in a huge variety of topics that go into more depth than a few-hour-long seminar.) I'm currently coteaching it with dfarhi (aka Meta to the Mathcamp folks), but we're not sure if we want to do it because preparing it will take some time.

The idea is that the students will themselves come up with the kind of data that they'd like to collect, and we'll provide them with the resulting data for various stellar objects. So initially they'll think of parallax (perhaps with some poking) and from that they can figure out some distances to close stars, but then it's up to them to find patterns in the data and think of other methods. The idea is that, on their own, they should come up with the H-R diagram, the idea of standard candles, and so forth, expanding out further and further the radius about which they can get information. (We'll at some point talk about light and give them spectra, but it's up to them to figure out that they're redshifted!) Meanwhile, we'll take some time each class to talk about the phenomena they're witnessing, telling them about related phenomena and expanding their understanding of the physics behind what they're discovering. It's an amazing way to get introduced to astronomy, because it all makes sense together and you are making the discoveries yourself. It's also crazy and insane, and will take a lot of time to prepare.

Thus: we are looking for another coteacher! It's a chance to be part of an awesome class and really help out a lot of kids. It would involve helping us to gather the data on the stars and prepare cards with the information for students, as well as planning the class and (optionally, but encouraged) giving about a third of the lectures. If you want to help make this happen, or you know someone else who's into astronomy and would want to help make this happen, let us know. We're not sure if we want to do it if it's just the two of us, because we're worried about the work, but with a third it shouldn't be bad at all.

The classes themselves take place Saturdays on the MIT campus, time negotiable. It's gonna be great. :)



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[info]astra_nomer
2009-02-13 04:30 pm UTC (link)
It's also crazy and insane, and will take a lot of time to prepare.

Yes, yes it is.

Where are you getting your data from, out of curiosity? I'm assuming you're not having the kids acquire data, but rather they request it and it automagically appears to them.

When you give them parallaxes, are you giving them simply a number, or giving them raw astrometry data, and then having them reduce it and making sure they remember to subtract out the motion of the earth around the sun and the motion of the solar system through the galaxy and all that?

Just wondering, because this sort of class sounds really ambitious, and I wonder how much you've thought through everything.

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-13 05:54 pm UTC (link)
We're planning to get data from online sources; it doesn't seem hard to online and get data by star.

As to the parallaxes: I had, in fact, never thought about subtracting out the motion of the solar system through the galaxy; I have to admit that I have no idea how to do that. (Also, the idea being that they're trying to discover the structure of galaxies and such "from scratch," it seems unreasonable to account for that initially.) I don't know what you mean by subtracting out the motion of the earth around the sun --- isn't that motion the whole point? That is, you're setting up a right triangle where one of the sides is the radius of the earth's orbit; why would you have to subtract anything out?

Our plan for giving them parallaxes had been, if we're able, to get pictures of the relevant portions of the sky six months apart and let them find the motion of the star, but if we're unable to get those pictures (even from, say, a desktop astronomy program), we'd just provide them with the angles.

I appreciate the warnings (we haven't thought through everything), and if we're getting parallax wrong that's a major problem. Are we, in fact, getting something criminally wrong?

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parallax
[info]astra_nomer
2009-02-13 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Ah, but you have to take relativity into account when calculating the true position of the star. So you will get a "parallax" from any star in the sky just because of the earth's motion relative to the star.

I don't think you're doing anything criminally wrong, I just think you're getting in way over your heads. Have you talked to an observational astronomer about your ideas for this class? Because I'm a simple theorist, and even I know that reducing photometric and spectral data and deriving real science from them can be very challenging.

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Re: parallax
[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-13 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Is that actually something substantial enough to be significant? My understanding is that we can only resolve parallax enough to work with the closest stars, where I can't imagine the impact would be huge. (Regardless, I now feel like I've been lied to whenever I've been taught theory!)

It creates something of a conundrum, because I feel like even if I taught theory about parallax the way that virtually everyone teaches theory about it, I'd *still* be lying. But the truth is too complex for students to ever get their hands on, which seems unfair! (This is, of course, not your fault; it just turns out that science is hard. :))

So, indeed, we haven't talked to a genuine observational astronomer. My overall feeling is that inaccuracies over corrective factors like relativity can be ignored without wrecking everything we do, but I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Perhaps it's time to seek out an observational astronomer to sanity-check. (I don't suppose you know anyone? :))

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Re: parallax
[info]astra_nomer
2009-02-13 10:07 pm UTC (link)
Is that actually something substantial enough to be significant?

If I recall my grad astronomy classes correctly, yes it is significant.

it just turns out that science is hard. :)

Yup!

You might want to ask around to see if there's a grad student at Harvard or MIT interested in working with you. Maybe email the administrators of the relevant departments (Astronomy at Harvard, some subset of courses 8 and 12 at MIT) to see if they'd be willing to email out a solicitation on your behalf. You can drop my name if you think it would help.

Good luck!

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Re: parallax
[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-13 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! We shall see how it goes. :)

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Re: parallax
[info]easwaran
2009-02-18 09:40 pm UTC (link)
My understanding is that we can only resolve parallax enough to work with the closest stars

As I understand it, it was only in the late 19th century that we had good enough telescopes to get precise enough measurements to resolve parallax for any star beyond the sun. I believe the unit of distance "parsec" is defined as the distance something needs to be from earth to have parallax of one arc-second at the extremes of earth's orbit, and the closest stars are a few parsecs away. So you need fine-enough-grained observations to recognize distances of a fraction of an arc-second.

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Re: parallax
[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-19 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Yup.

I mean, even with awesome technology now, it's still limited how far out we can go.

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Re: parallax
[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-13 09:39 pm UTC (link)
And, of course, thank you for your help --- I forgot to say this in my other comment, and I'm very grateful for anything that will prevent us from seriously screwing up. :)

(I'm now trying to get in touch with an observational astronomer I know to try to work this out, although she was my TA years ago and so I don't know if she'll want to spend time clearly up any of my misconceptions!)

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[info]pixie_of_spite
2009-02-14 09:52 pm UTC (link)
When in the year? My friend wayne that I put you in contact with ages ago is an astrophysicist who runs summer astrophysics camps for kiddoes...

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[info]fclbrokle
2009-02-15 04:37 am UTC (link)
The class would start in March and run once a week for eight weeks.

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